Crew Weight Limits

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Postby Guest » Wed Nov 20, 2002 12:40 am

After speaking to some of the oldies in this class I get the impression all this Jibber Jabber about crew wt. is wasted time. I'm not giving up that easy. I think some of the owners have a legitmate gripe and I think it should be addressed by the class.

Chris has a great idea, we should at least take a poll of J-80 owners and see if this needs further attention.

JESTER
USA 254

Driver - 210-215

Crew - ( subject to change frequently after the bar tab is closed out.) But averages 562 lbs.
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Postby Guest » Wed Nov 20, 2002 2:15 pm

The 80's giant cockpit makes it easy for fat, slow-moving creatures to get about + sailors like greasy food & beer [natural law that people *grow* into the next larger size of pants they buy (same thing for boats?)] = 10 years from now, we'll all be talking about pushing the weight limit to 1,000 lbs. to accomodate 4 "reasonably-sized" 250 lb. adults (since we'll all be too squishy & lazy to handle boat with just three 250 pounders).

Tom Berns
USA 344 / Magic Bus
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Postby Guest » Mon Dec 02, 2002 3:03 am

Sorry I've been gone. I was doing a delivery from Manzinillo Mex to the border.
I have read some very good responses today, and it looks like it might be worth the new elected officials next year to take a valid look at what people are saying here reguarding the weight rule. I think one way to go is to not include the owners weight. there are some good sides to it and bad. At a quick view if you 2 owners could they share the helm depending on wind?
No...
If they weigh in with a heavy owner who is designated as the driver, he(she)stay's through out the entire series, or if they choose to they can't exceed the total allowed crew weight limit.
If it is true that the boat sails faster with lighter crews then it will all even it self out in the end and over time. Knowing that thier will be light and heavy air regatta's through the year. And whos to say that having max weight is always best. But having people or boats not sailing is hurting all of us and somthing needs to be done about it.
They way it stands right now with all the responses is this

A total of aprox. 40 responses that make an opinion one way or the other.

There are 8 undecided.

8 nays

about 25 ya that support either looking or belive the rule is to light add up the response your self and see the light...lol
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Postby Guest » Thu Jan 30, 2003 8:05 pm

This weight rule need to change. Last years notice of race for the Southern Circut you had a increased weght rule to 800 lbs one more regatta that a J owner can't sail in. This SUCKS why is it the J24 and Melges 24 have a higher weight limit. I not letting up on this discussion. This isn't right.
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Postby Guest » Fri Jan 31, 2003 5:09 pm

David,

This issue has been extensively debated during the three years I have been active in the class. In 2001 we allowed crews to sail at a weight of 800 lbs in order to encourage participation in the Southern Circuit. In 2002 we reverted to the class limit of 745 lbs based on a vote of active boats. We actually had greater participation with the lower limit, though that was due in part to growth of the class.
While I do not dispute your claim that the class rule limits participation by some crews, there seems to be little broad-based support (particularly internationally) for raising it. I have two crew members who weigh well over 200 lbs but compensate for them by sailing with a woman who weighs under 140.
Unless the class rules change, I can't see using a higher limit for the Circuit, since you would have to change crews prior to the Worlds...
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Postby Guest » Sat Feb 01, 2003 12:59 pm

It seems that much of this discussion is based on emotion and not on the facts. Steve Stout on Nov 12, 2002 wrote probably the best thread in this discussion suggesting the possible effect of crew weight on performance in similarly boats. What I have not seen is information specifically on the J/80 on how varying the crew weight will theoretically affect performance in different wind/wave conditions upwind, reaching and downwind. Since the boat designer is available and has vast experience in yacht design, I would think the class should consult him and publish the data.

I am new to the J/80, but I have been racing on Lightnings and Lasers since 1962 and on IOR/PHRF boats since the late 1970s. I know that weight is a double edge sword. In the Lightning class were there is no weight rule, clearly heavier crews are advantaged in winds over 16 kts going upwind. The advantage is partly offset going downwind and reaching when lighter crew plan sooner, but heavy crews clearly disadvanged in winds less than 8 kts and even more so if there are big waves. I have race all over the US, and 80% of the racing in the summer has been in winds less than 16 knots. Maybe their should be a minumum crew weight in all fairness.
Terry Burke
TopNotch #405
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Postby Guest » Sun Feb 02, 2003 1:59 pm

I think Terry’s points are valid. The laws of Physics are hard to ignore.

To Chris’s point about having to change crew for the Worlds if the weight limit was increased. I don’t see the logic. No one has to qualify for the Worlds on a local circuit. Buy a boat, pay your fee and go. That’s one of the positives of this class.

I would like to see the local fleet weight rule relaxed. I could live with not being able to race in the Worlds or Key West if I could participate on the local circut with equal scoring. This can be implemented by local fleet captians as it was on the southern circut and does not require any class rule modifications.

I don't think every owner aspires to attending the Worlds. Those of us that can’t make the Internation Class weight would not be able to race the Worlds or the Mid Winter Championship (Key West).

Greg
#32
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Postby Guest » Sun Feb 02, 2003 8:39 pm

I'm still a rookie at this racing thing but I haven't heard one skipper say ( I wanted to sail at brand x regatta but I couldn't get enough weight on my boat so I stayed home)....

Robert Miller
Jester
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Postby Guest » Wed Feb 05, 2003 1:38 am

Being one of the heavier owners I am blessed to have married a 118 lb foredeck queen. Togeather we make up 358 lbs which is 1/2 of 716 lbs. At 358 lbs we are looking for 2 @ 193.5 lbs. You would think that this would be easily accomplished. It is not. It seems that we are allways wheeling, dealing, as well as crash dieting in order to make weight. I know for a fact that those crews that crash diet and dehydrate in order to make a weigh-in will not make weight at any other time during the regatta. Is it fair if a crew temperarily "loses" 20 collective lbs via crash diet & dehydration to weigh-in at max weight, and gains it back at the beer tent before the 1st race that they are "equal" with a crew that weighed in at 10 lbs under. Dehydration is dangerous, especially here in Texas summers. So unless you weigh at the end of a regatta you never really know what everyone's sailing weight is. I do know that with a 155% genoa and 945 lbs on board we are faster than J105s, with genoas, boat for boat up to about 12-14 knots true wind speed. So much for goofy class rules. As an ex J30 owner this went on in that class too. They went between 7 people and 1400 lbs twice while I was an owner. The important thing was that the owners were polled and the majority ruled so the rule was changed. Only after the owners felt that they had a voice did the gripeing diminish. When the people who spend the money get to decide, rather than some arbitrary compromise decided by someone whose agenda is to sell boats, you will see this thread die off.
Tom Gore
#36 Javelin
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Postby Guest » Wed Feb 05, 2003 1:40 am

P.S. Javelin did not make the 1st stop in Houston last year due to inability to get crew who could make weight and travel.

Tom Gore
#36 Javelin
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Postby Guest » Sun Feb 09, 2003 3:19 am

I think that Tom makes a great point that Spulin hit on in his 11-12-02 posting. Although the limit of 745/4 yields a 186 lb average, if you through a woman on the boat at 125 lbs., then the average for the remaining crew jumps to 207, a very managable number. Perhaps the Johnstone boys are trying to encourage participation with our better-looking friends. As much as many of you feel the number inhibits you from sailing with your buddies, for many others it doesn't allow them to sail with their wives.
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Postby Guest » Sun Feb 09, 2003 10:08 am

Here's my problem in a nutshell. I'm 240. At 240#, I am left with either sailing with three person crew or find three others that weigh 505# or less or 168# average for the remaining crew members.
Since this class has a owner-driver rule, the owner is the only position that can not be eliminated. The driver's extra weight in the back of the boat is not particularly advantagous. Is there not a compromise position on this whole issue to at least give some sort of break to the owner/driver similar to the J/105 class rules?
Terry
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Postby Guest » Sun Feb 09, 2003 12:26 pm

Joe;
please scroll down to a post by
Sheryl Strout on Monday, November 18, 2002 - 06:15 pm:

I respectfully suggest that by continuing to restrict class racing to small women and small drivers, we are restricting class participation. Is the J80 destined to be known world over as the Small Mans' OD boat?

I am a very enthusiastic J80 owner. At 1/4 to 1/3 the price of a J105, and 100% of the fun, my decision to purchase was a no brainer. But for a 6' driver that weighs 220, it looks like the J105 may have been a better choice. For now, I will PHRF-it.

Greg
#32
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Postby Guest » Sun Feb 09, 2003 4:40 pm

I have a couple of thoughts. The first one is there are more and more owners that are not sailing because of the weight rule this not good to have as we all can see this being a problem over time with keeping the class going. Not only trying to build up the class across the nation, but I'm in a dilima between my wife and I and she wanted the boat and one design race. But between the both of us we weigh 420lbs combined. now we have to find 2 more at an average 162.5 to fit the rule. As I have stated this before it is stupid that we have a rule that will stop my WIFE or anyone else from sailing in fleet races.
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Postby Guest » Sun Feb 09, 2003 6:19 pm

Two points:

1) While the J24 may allow a greater total crew weight, that number is almost always divided by five, yielding an average weight ten pounds less than the J80.

2) There is no problem racing a J80 with three. In fact, with two good crew, I prefer it.

Heavier owners can race with three, just like heavier J24 owners race with four. The argument for raising the limit depends on the increased weight not being an advantage over existing crews. If that's the case, then sailing a little light with three should not be a concern.

Going the other way, adding a fifth to compensate for an increase in the allowable weight, is not practical because of the size of the boat.
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