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PostPosted: Fri Mar 07, 2003 1:58 am
by Guest
Hey can we keep topics in respective ares instead of all topics inside one site. It's getting confusing as to what we are talking about.

PostPosted: Fri Mar 07, 2003 2:39 am
by Guest
Question to the management a thought that would save time and money for everyone and eliminate time for shipping the damage from shipping a new main or jib to Houston and back. One thing for sure is that the J80 International class could use a measurement tech. committee.
Each Fleet could have a measurer. So Annapolis would have a Fleet measurer, So cal would have one. Texas I would say 3, Austin, Dallas, and Galveston Bay area or into Regions.
Now each measurer is part of what makes up the measurement technical committee. The National Measurer over sees the Fleet measurers.
they make up quorums and can help organize topics and proposed rule changes. The other is the Fleet Meas. should be able to check out templates and scales to different fleets. It has to be cheaper to ship templates and a scale to another local sailmaker like Doyle Sails in Houston "WHO DOES A GREAT JOB and Thank you"
Than it is to ship Karl all over the country. I know I can't afford it and no one would do it in California. I don’t think it's possible for 1 person to service the whole class with 150-200 boats racing in 30 states.

I’ve seen this system work in other class’s i.e... Cal 20 a class that been in existence 35 years and still going. Believe it or not that is a development class. So it would be a lot easier in a closed rules class of a boat such as the J 80.

Just a Thought I as always I encourage feed back from all.

Dave Hammett
DnA #87

PostPosted: Fri Mar 07, 2003 10:41 am
by Guest
This will only work if the members step forward and volunteer to get trained and assume the responsibility of the job. I know there have been requests before asking for help in this area. The problem is that no one has stepped forward. We can consider this an open invitation for volunteers. Contact me if you are volunteering. The job requirements will be as the Chief Measurer directs. I know that Scott Spurlin and myself have set ouselves up to be trained at the Texoma Stop of the Southern Circuit. We will not be trained in sail measurements at that time due to time constraints. All people interested in sail measurements need to read the ISAF requirements. Is a complicated process at best.

PostPosted: Fri Mar 07, 2003 2:06 pm
by Guest
I am a Vice President - Assistant Measurer of the International Lightning Class. The Lightning class measures all sails and key measurements of all boat at its sanctioned Lightning Regattas which includes Districts, Regionals (such as the North Amercans, South American) and the Worlds. Some fleets may do measurements, but this is not typical outside of boat weighing in some fleets.
All sails are measured at these sanctioned events whether or not they were previously measured. Believe it or not, sails change with time...they shrink or stretch! There is a certified measurer system in place. Certified measurers are trained in all aspects of hull and sail measurement. At a big event, not all measurements are done by certified measurers, but they are being supervised by one.
The Lightning class has a measurement committee that includes a Chief Measurer and several Assistant Measures such as myself to review and make measurement rulings. There is also a technical committee made up of representitive of the major sail makers, boat builders and few select old gurus that make recommendations.
This system has been up and running for 65 years and it works. One thing that would never happen in the Lightning class is that key measurements would be done by a vendor to the class. There is a conflict of interest of having owners send their new North or UK sails to a different competitive loft for measurement. Its two way conflict of interest...between competitive lofts and between the sail makers and the class.
As far as developing a certified measurer system, it is not that complicated. As Craig White mention, the system requires training. The best place to do training is before major events where teachers train students and then the student shows aptitude in the different levels of measurement. In addition to the written specifications, there needs to be documents on how the measurements are taken etc. The ISAF does not administer the J/80 class. Specifications need to be approved, but the class writes the rules and makes measurements as it suits the class.
I am not trying to set myself up to part of the measurement team in the J/80 class because of my continued involvement in the Lightning Class. My first J/80 event will be at Texoma where I will get my feet wet and will go from there to see how much I split my racing time between the two classes
Terry Burke
TopNotch #405

PostPosted: Fri Mar 07, 2003 3:24 pm
by Guest
Why do the sails need to be sent to one shop for measurement in the first place? I have attended several J22 National events and the process was to take your sails to registration, some guys would unbag them, check them against measurement points on the floor of the club and stamp them. If they were backed up, you went and had a beer and came back a few hours later. If there wasn't space, couldn't you stake out a clean poly tarp with the measurement points in the parking lot and do the same? It takes only minutes with two people. Maybe the asymetrical is just too big to do this. There must be more to this than I see.

PostPosted: Fri Mar 07, 2003 8:14 pm
by Guest
Are we now requiring sails to be measured before any use at class events, or measuring them at big events?


PostPosted: Sat Mar 08, 2003 3:37 am
by Guest
I’m excited to see that not all new idea’s come under criticism, I think this is wonderful. I know it’s still to new to rate!!!! but it’s encouraging.
I would like to be the to first volunteer for at least the Southern California area that I can handle, yes I’m in the sailmaking industry “ part timeâ€

PostPosted: Sat Mar 08, 2003 11:40 am
by Guest
I agree with Dave H. This is great stuff!!! We are an evolving class that will be successful only if we minimize the growing pains! I knew several months ago when I was corresponding with Terry Burke that his experiences in the Lightning class could be helpful to us, along with Johns comments on the J22 procedures. This will help us formulate the correct processes to put in place and make the class better. Ultimately we all want the same thing: Competitive one design racing, which is FUN! If we work together in a postive fashion offering ideas/experiences we will reach the goal that much sooner!!!

Scott Spurlin
Class Secretary

PostPosted: Sat Mar 08, 2003 1:01 pm
by Guest
Are we saying that owners are intentionally buying class sails that are not made to spec and that sail makers are agreeing to apply royalty patches on illegal sails?

I think everyone buys a class sail on good faith and that sail makers willingly follow the class spec or they would jeopardize receiving negative publicity in a very competitive market.

If you attend a race with older class sails that have lost their shape, how far off can they be? We all know old sails are bad and owners replace them as their budgets allow. Those with large budgets would buy a new set every race if they could. That's the point of the class rule restriction. To cap the cost.

Are we going to force owners to purchase new sails every year? Or worse, DSQ them from the start for wanting to participate with a blown out main or jib because they can't afford a new set?

Another can of worms!! Who wants to open it?

If folks are concerned about leveling the playing field, the class may be better served applying this energy towards establishing an owner/driver royalty patch inventory. It's a complex process, and harder to manage than measuring sails, but I think this is the weak spot in the rule.

Today, you show up for a race and have a patch on your sail. Who's patch is it? Effectively, you could show up with a new set or borrowed set from a different sail maker or loft at every regatta.

Even easier, is to sew an old patch on a new sail. How do we know the patch goes with the sail? How do we know it's not your brothers sail, or a sail from a J80 owner that does not compete?

I'd be willing to design a database to track this information for the class, but I think the subject is more complex than I have described and requires more debate and may require new ways to apply patches to sails.

Greg Locke

PostPosted: Sat Mar 08, 2003 5:57 pm
by Guest
I kind of agree with Greg that there doesn't seem to be a whole lot of room for abuse when the sails are supplied by a few major sailmakers. Nevertheless I don't disagree that they should probably be measured at least once before using in major class events.

More important, in my opinion, is equalizing the hulls by trying to get a local measurement process that facilitates weighing and measuring and inspecting the rig for "creative" stuff. This is the primary problem that we have in local fleet racing where a lot of the boats never see a major event. I understand that the J24's have a procedure for that.

I have a measurement certificate from the Newport Worlds, but if I change anything, like substituting a new motor, or for that matter get new sails, the weight will probably be invalidated. I have a load-cell scale that can do a J80 just fine but without any official procedure, its hard to ask owners to subject their boats and time to a weigh-in.

PostPosted: Sat Mar 08, 2003 7:06 pm
by Guest
The answer to your question is if a royalty patch has more than set of sewing holes in the patch and sail only has 1 set sew holes those sails are illeagle. Further more if a sail has been recut or show signs of being recut then the sail should be remeasured and only then. One thing that will help the class self policeing. It is not up to the Chief measurer to protest anyone for infringing a rule while sailing but up to each one us to police ourselves. One thing that will discourage a class from growing is buracracy with to much managment. Measuring in should simple and pleasurable

PostPosted: Sat Mar 08, 2003 7:40 pm
by Guest
karl Deham has begun inspecting boats at the southern circuit stops. I doubt it will remain "all boats all events" but the occasional check is good for all of us. Inspections don't just catch the bad guys it keeps us all up to par with the safety gear. For example, we got a heads up e-mail to check expiration dates for you flares. I never thought about that. I was also suprised to learn that we are required to carry two fire extinguishers. Pretty much everything else common sense.

Anyway, the officers have asked for volunteers to become measurers. It would be best if each fleet had someone as a qualified measurer. So, if you aren't interested in volunteering, see if someone in you fleet is.